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Cunnnot for tho Tamhoth amunril's stand employees. And also we think those groups outside who represent particular need interests-we brought them around the position of the council in that fight.

I think there is sufficient evidence of that here. Our problem is that we haven't been able to widen the frontiers of that too well. But then of course it's because the fight against the Tories is at various stages of development in various parts of the country:

And in local government, where we have obviously had to concentrate, the situation there is that because councils have accommodated to Tory attacks, this tends to defuse the fight back.

Unions in particular have concentrated one-off struggles of course in their own particular authorities and not been able to bring tnat onto a national front against the Tory But I think the indications we have received from the conferences which were originally initiated by Lambeth -the Local Government in Crisis Conferences-have tended to show that workers are willing to come to grips with this government. What 1s lacking is leadership. We think that. we have made a contribution towards that but we are still the beginning of that particular movement.

KW: One of the problems which arises from that is that you say that you are at the beginning of the movement, but certain councils such as Sheffield, Lambeth and Lothian that have attempted to take the most left stance, are actually in a sense out on a limb. What do you think about the problem then that faces, say Sheffield, Lambeth and Lothian as places with the most developed opposition. What sort of links do you cap as heirio nnesihie to establish between those places in terms of joint declarations and things like that?

TK: We have obviously looked at that. The problem that you face with, for instance, Lothian, is that there are different laws relating to Scottish local government which tends to place them in a somewhat different situation to us. We have discussed with them and basically kept in touch.

Sheffield, while it has maintained a generally similar line to ourselves, because financially they were in'a better position than Lambeth because they had resources, balances, this has tended to ease the situation Ior them somewhat.

That's what I meant a little earlier, that in local government it's at different stages because conditions regrettably are different in the boroughs.

I think the problem we are facing is that as we are out on a limb and so are the other boroughs that you mentioned, in isolation I don't think we can defeat the government.

Our contribution must be to continuously attempt to raise consciousness, seek agreements Where we can on unified policies, to keep pushing the Labour Parties and the trade unions into that fight with the perspective of bringing down the government as the only answer and that's what we're hoping to do.

In order to continue that process I think that it is necessary for Labour to remain in control of these authorities and therefore I reject arguments which are presented which will take us out of that control situation. I think that without the platform of the the availability of • without local government local services then frankly we would be isolated and destroyed very rapidly. Lambeth conferences I think the last Lambeth conference passed a resolution which said that it was important to establish local steering committees and local conferences in different areas. What do you think of that as a direction forward?

TK: Yes, I support that. You can't mobilise a movement artificially from a particular geographical point. You have to have local involvement, local action, which is developed on an ared support the line that in local areas, that there should be a liaison, that there should be a working out of the situation, agreement on what tactics can be drawn up, what tactics can be fought for in that particular area. I would say I supported that position.

I think the first conference certainly indicated the willingness of people to engage in a fight. Again the lack of leadership which I referred to was a continuous cry.

The second conference indicated that yes, there is again a strong recognition of the need for that fight. Again I think a total lack of leadership was being posed.

At the second conference the debate degenerated in my opinion on what Lambeth council was doing. We had people there from areas who obviously were not taking up the matter at their own area level, but were merely hoping that an action by Lambeth would provoke the necessary breakthrough in the class So they divided themselves on how they saw Lambeth in operation and I think that was regrettable. But if anything positive came out of it I think it was the move to have a wider base of activity throughout the FORGET How do you think you've been able to use the Lambeth experience to develop the movement in areas where you've spoken?

TK: I think that the way the contribution has been made from Lambeth is the fact that Lambeth is seen as the focal point of the struggle nationally, that even if there are disagreements on the way in which we have approached tactically the question, that what it has done is to pose the issues very clearly.

I think that it does also provoke people to argue not just on abstract principled questions but also on real tactical questions and I think probably as a consequence of that we have seen some developments or that we have been able to assist developments.

Whether they have been in exactly the direction we took is immaterial. People in struggle will move within their own experience and within what resources they see available to them.

We have been able to show at least that it is possible to take the stand that we have, which is primarily a no cuts position; that we have been able to pose the limitations of that struggle and I don't think I've ever hesitated to say that there are limitations. I think that that, in itself, brings the contribution of Lambeth's experience to their debates and that's worthwhile. The government's attack is relentless. They will procede firmly on their position over the next period and so people who thought that it was perhaps somewhat abstract will find that it's no longer an abstract issue.

IS: You say you think the Tories are going to proceed relentlessly on their course. What implications then do you think that has for the Lambeth counci and where is the 228273

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KW: What assessment then would you make of the

KW: What's your assessment of the meetings you've spoken at?